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Internships and DIVA magazine – the consequences.

July 8, 2011

Since my blog post on Internships, exploitation and social divisions, there’s been a huge number of developments, as anyone who follows me on twitter will know.

There’s been a series of blog posts about me and my issue with DIVA magazine - starting with this one at Harry’s Place. There have also been follow ups at this website. There is also a blog post here and now here at Intern Avenue. I must point out that I did not press anyone for these posts to be written or ask anyone to write about me.

After the MP for Harlow, Robert Halfon, saw the post at Harry’s Place, he contacted me asking if I wanted him to bring it up in Parliament: I agreed. While I was – and am – grateful that he’s representing me in this way, I am not myself a Conservative supporter (as has been implied by some people) and did not approach him to do this.  Robert tabled EDM 2037 about my case, and yesterday, asked a question in the House of Commons related to this (about half way down the Hansard page). I’ve been accused of self-publicity around the DIVA issue, but I can reiterate that never once did I ask Robert to take this to Parliament (although I’m glad he has) nor have I asked for any blog posts to be written about me. I wrote my original blog post, which was intended to focus on the wider issue of unpaid internships, with my anecdote as an illustrative point, last Wednesday, and made an effort to spread it around twitter. After this, I didn’t ask for any more publicity until the next blog post about me – which I admit I tweeted about, but I don’t think this was unreasonable.

Yesterday, following Robert Halfon’s question about the case in the House of Commons, I received an email from the editor of DIVA, Jane Czyzselska. So as to respond fully to what she says, I reproduce the email below:

Dear Simone
In reference to the uninformed comments you’ve made about me and DIVA
online and those raised in the House of Commons by your Conservative
party ally David Halfon, it’s a shame you haven’t considered it
necessary to verify or discuss the situation further with me directly.

DIVA is a small, independent magazine, run on a shoe-string budget and
with skeletal staff. We’re not being skinflints when we say we can’t
afford £100 for a month of travel expenses on this occasion. It’s the
truth. What we do offer to the many people who do work experience with
us is support and training and a vital chance to get their work
published either in print or online; something that has led to jobs
either within our company or on other publications and websites.

Those who complete work placements with us often report that DIVA
offers a meaningful and important opportunity. To quote your friend
Amy Nathan, “Internships at DIVA are a brilliant opportunity. After
only five days I feel that I have learned so much about writing, the
media and politics. Through research and writing articles I have
gained a far greater understanding of social and political issues. The
people who work at DIVA are not only lovely but interesting and
intelligent and an absolute pleasure to work for. I leave my
internship here a better person, and I would highly recommend that
anyone interested apply.”

Unlike many larger media corporations we have an excellent track
record in best practice, a clear policy and pastoral procedures that
adhere to the letter of the law – from our induction process at the
start of the placement right through to the training and guidance and
feedback process at the end.

We are deeply saddened that you have taken this unfortunate course of
action, attempting to defame and discredit DIVA in the process
without foundation. DIVA is a small  enterprise, created by a small team
of committed queer women and men whose intentions are genuinely for
the good of the community.

Yours sincerely
Jane Czyzselska

 I wish to take this point by point.

Firstly, there’s the reference to my “Conservative party ally David [sic] Halfon”. This may be strictly speaking true – he is on this issue my ally, and he is a Conservative MP, but the implication that I myself am a Conservative party member or supporter is baseless; as anyone who reads my blog or twitter would know, I am in fact a committed Labour party activist. Further more, I object to the insinuation that political parties are relevant in this discussion.

Secondly, there’s Ms. Czyzselska’s justification of being unable to offer travel expenses. This may be true: I have no reason to believe this a lie. However, she clearly misses one of the primary points in this case, and the reason I was so upset by it. It was not just that DIVA failed to offer travel expenses – I understand that not all companies can do this, although I firmly believe that internships where neither expenses nor a wage are paid are a bad thing – but that my offer of an internship was immediately withdrawn by DIVA magazine.  The email rescinding my internship is reproduced below:

 Hi Simone

Sorry I’ve not gotten back to you – I’m afraid I cant offer you the expenses this month and I feel uncomfortable offering you an internship when you are so young and without an independent budget of your own. I’m sorry also that on this occasion I think we should leave it until you’re 18. Thanks very much for your interest and I’m really sorry again for disappointing you,
All best
Jane

 

 
Instead of merely making the statement that DIVA were unable to offer me expenses, Ms. Czyzselska used my age and lack of an independent budget to justify turning down my internship completely. I was not given the chance to negotiate a shorter period of internship, for instance, or attempt to make up the expenses from my own savings (which, I point out, would have cost me a considerable proportion of the money I’m saving for university.) The comment on my age in particular was groundless, considering their current intern is sixteen, and Amy Nathan (quoted in Jane’s email above) was sixteen when she undertook her work experience. The reference to my lack of independent budget suggests that it is my financial situation and not DIVA’s which has led to my rejection. The email which Jane sent me yesterday has entirely missed this point.
 
Furthermore, I want to emphasise again that my original blog post certainly discussed my own experiences, but I was trying to highlight the wider cause of unpaid internships. Perhaps it is my fault, but I feel that I’ve become too much the focus of attention in this case, and I’ve certainly attracted more criticism of the magazine itself than I intended. I am still hugely attached to DIVA as a magazine. I would have preferred that the debate was about the issues at large, and not my particular experiences. As I have said, perhaps it is my fault for not steering it that way – all I can say is that I’ve acted as I felt best all along; if I’ve made mistakes, it’s not out of a sense of malice or, as has been an accusation, self-publicity.
 
Thirdly, Jane’s comments on my friend Amy’s internship, and the general high standard of internship offered by DIVA. I have never commented on or disputed the standard of internship DIVA give, only the way in which they go about offering them. Although I will say that I was, coincidentally, with my friend Amy last night, and she barely remembers the quote given. I suspect, although I may well be wrong, that she was asked for a quote at the end of her work experience, and could hardly have made a negative comment on them if she was hoping for more work experience there in the future.
 
Finally, there is Jane’s accusation that I have attempted to “defame and discredit DIVA…without foundation”. In my original blog-post I didn’t even mention DIVA’s name. Everything I have said about them has been factual, to the best of my knowledge. Everything I have said can be backed up. I still possess all the emails which DIVA sent me. I also sent copies of these emails to Robert Halfon on request, so that comments he makes on the matter are accurate. I do not believe that this is “without foundation”.  I also want to make clear again it has never been my intention (although I accept that this may have happened) to damage DIVA’s reputation or its sales. DIVA is the only magazine aimed at people like me out there, and I’d be devastated if for whatever reason it stopped running.
 
I was asked on twitter yesterday by Kim Watson , Managing Director for Media and Marketing for DIVA, Pink Paper and Gay Times, why I didn’t speak to anyone at DIVA about this, and instead went straight for my Tory MP. Again I must reiterate that I didn’t approach Rob Halfon; he approached me. As for why I didn’t email or speak to anyone at DIVA before writing my original blog post, there are several reasons:
  • I found the rejection on the basis of my age and lack of financial independence somewhat humilating, to be honest. The terms of the email seemed final; does Kim Watson think I should have pleaded for my internship back?
  • I’d already spent about a month trying to sort out the issue with the travel expenses, and sending multiple emails in an attempt to get the editor to reply to me conclusively. I phoned up twice, also. Getting satisfactory responses was very difficult on the matter of travel expenses.
  • Jane’s position was made very clear in the last email: I do not see why, if this was her position, she isn’t happy to have it known. I do not believe I have been “misrepresenting” DIVA.
  • As I have stated, my original blog post was meant to be more focused on unpaid internships in general as an issue in society. I’ve made it clear that there are people in far worse positions than I am unable even to take up unpaid internships, expenses or no expenses. I’ve been criticised for becoming a “figurehead” for the intern situation as a white middle-class woman. It was never my intention to do this.

It’s possible I’ll be accused of self-publicity again for this blog post, but my intention is only to respond to criticisms and clear up some key points. My original blog post was not intended to spark off a storm of debate about me personally; it has been perceived as a whiny post by some critics, but this was never my intention. Nor was it my intention to damage DIVA; it’s still a magazine I intend to carry on buying as I enjoy it immensely. This will be my last blog-post on the subject, as I hope the matter will die down, and the debate focus on the wider problems of unpaid internships as an elitist way of entering into professions.

Finally, I include the email I have sent to Jane Czyzselska in response to yesterday’s email:

Hello Jane
 
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to reply to my issue, especially since it has been through the House of Commons. 
 
The issue is not that simply that you wouldn’t or couldn’t release £5 a day for my travel expenses, but your rejection of me for being too young and not financially independent – particularly since you have and have had interns younger than I am. Furthermore, my original blog-post on the matter did not mention the magazine’s name; I intended my story to be illustrative of the wider matter of unpaid internships – a system in society I believe to be elitist and unfair. I never intended the debate to centre around me to the extent it has.
 
I think it’s also misleading for you to refer to Robert Halfon as my Conservative party ally. Although I’m personally acquainted with him, I did not approach him to bring this up in Parliament, nor am I myself a Conservative party member or supporter. On the contrary, I’m a member and campaigner for the Labour party, and an active member of LGBT Labour, although my political allegiences are simply irrelevant to the case at hand.
 
Yours sincerely,
Simone Webb

 

20 Comments leave one →
  1. Mary permalink
    July 8, 2011 10:46 am

    Well done Simone. Executed with class as always.
    I’m glad your point made it to the Commons as it clearly made Diva sit up and take notice!

  2. kim permalink
    July 8, 2011 12:12 pm

    And still my question remains unanswered – why did you not contact Jane or anyone at DIVA first in reply to her e-mails?

    • July 8, 2011 12:25 pm

      Apparently you still have not read this blog post thoroughly. I suggest you do so.

    • Jane W permalink
      July 8, 2011 12:37 pm

      Kim,

      Did you read the Email Jane C sent? It sounds pretty final to me and Simone does answer your question in the article. It also sounds as though the window for an internship would have gone by the time they got around to answering any questions Simone may have had.

  3. Jakka permalink
    July 8, 2011 8:30 pm

    What a lost opportunity. A couple of articles for Comment Is Free would have easily covered your travel costs. Seems to me the helping hand from a Tory MP championing social mobility (whilst voting strongly in favour of £9000 tuition fees) scuppered a great work placement for a 16 year old.

    • July 8, 2011 8:33 pm

      Perhaps you failed to notice that the internship was rejected far before the involvement of Robert Halfon.

      Furthermore, as surprised as you may be, I can’t actually just write articles for CiF when I feel like it.

  4. July 9, 2011 2:17 am

    The attention being placed on this issue should be focused on the matter of social mobility and the role that internships have to play. Simone NEVER contacted Intern Avenue to write about her but has received the natural compassion of those who want to support talented individuals seeking to further their career. This blog post and her ability to handle a very difficult personal (and now public) disappointment has shown greatness of character for which she should be commended not criticised.

  5. Camilla permalink
    July 11, 2011 10:08 am

    I have a feeling that, after your many emails and phonecalls, Jane C feared you might be a bit of a pain in the neck to have around in the office, and she tried to let you down gently by putting it down to the expenses issue.

    She worded her response carelessly in my opinion, allowing you to take the moral high ground and play the martyr.

    She should have said ‘no sorry we can’t afford it’, but then (as, let’s face it, you clearly *could* afford your bus fare) she would have had to put up with your whingeing for a whole month.

  6. Git permalink
    July 11, 2011 10:09 am

    Please – her private disappointment she CHOSE to make public. Some weirdo geezer on Harry’s Place made it even more public then her MP waded in and made it even more so. Had Simone not expected a handout, had she considered dipping into her savings or maybe even just thinking about getting the bus instead of the tube, then her private disappointment may not have happened and certainly none of this hoo ha would have occurred. I doubt DIVA magazine will want to offer anyone an internship or any work experience after this, so well done to all of you for successfully denying opportunities to others due to self-interest and a raging sense of entitlement

  7. Harvey permalink
    July 11, 2011 10:39 am

    “Diva is run on a shoe string budget and skeletal staff”

    Good grief it’s worse then I thought . The staff can’t afford to feed themselves .

    Ms Webb , far from expecting travel expenses , I think you should consider running a soup kitchen for all the skeletal staff at diva

  8. July 11, 2011 11:32 am

    Harvey,

    Are those skeletal staff at DIVA the same ones who work at Millivres Prowler Limited, a company that in its latest financial statements filed with Companies House (Year ended April 30,2010), reported a profit for the year of £99,673?

    Should that “soup kitchen” be provided for staff include the directors of the company of which Kim Watson is one? It can be noted that for the majority of that financial year there were three directors. The total directors’ remuneration that year was £224,049.

    • Git permalink
      July 11, 2011 7:20 pm

      That’s Millivres Prowler who run three retail brands and three media brands of which DIVA is but one and probably not the one with the widest circulation, the other two being Gay Times and the Pink Paper (online only). The money probably lies in their retail brands, Prowler, Expectations and Diva online. I don’t know much about how companies like this work, but I can’t imagine it’s just one fund of money sloshing around.

      • July 12, 2011 8:14 am

        Git,

        Perhaps you would like to comment on what the finances of the magazine has to do with rescinding an offer of internship to Simone on the grounds of her financial position? This is what DIVA did. The editor informed Simone that she was uncomfortable offering an internship to someone “without an independent budget” of their own.

        • Ellen permalink
          April 12, 2012 2:55 pm

          As above, it seems highly likely that the editor just worded her email carelessly, as she realised that Simone was going to be irritating to work with. Employers typically don’t want to work with someone like that. If they’re going to kick up this much of a fuss over £5/day expenses, which she can quite frankly afford, then who knows what she’d be like on a day-to-day basis.

  9. July 11, 2011 12:27 pm

    I don’t think Simone rushed into complaining about her internship publicly nor do I think she was motivated by retribution. However, I think Robert Halfon was wrong in specifically naming her and the publication in an EDM instead of putting forward a EDM that made a point about all internships being required to offer reasonable transport expenses and a general statement about their elitist nature. This is, after all, the point Simone was trying to make until the issue became about her and the Diva magazine (which is by no means a unique experience).

  10. Previous intern permalink
    July 12, 2011 8:29 am

    Missing out on a Diva internship is not a huge thing. I did one and Jane is one of those types of arrogant Editors that are never there. She is in about 2 days a week, always off on trips and leaves the team to do everything for her which she mulls over with a sense of The Big I Am when she gets back. I sat there for days on end, with another intern, just looking at each other because we were the only ones in.

  11. July 12, 2011 3:40 pm

    Simone.

    You write that a number of blogs, websites and a backbench MP list have publicized this case (and that you didn’t ask them to).

    Either you want this to be publicised or not. By listing all of this publicity, aren’t you really showing that you’re quite relishing being centre stage on this?

    I just hope you feel you’re in control of how the story is being spun on your behalf. There appears to be a discrepancy between your excellent media awareness and the little-victim trope.

    Good luck.

    • October 5, 2011 4:23 pm

      Mo,
      I could blog about this, without asking Simone if she wanted me to. I could put any spin on it I wished.

      Simone drawing attention to the unsolicited articles her experience has given her shows that she has a rather good awareness of the media, and is able to stand up for herself and say “I did not ask people to write these things, with the spin they have placed on it.” Simone is not able to have articles published in other media than her own website, any PR professional worth their salt would be cautious of over-attention grabbing, but at the same time, there is also a need for Simone to re-state her side of the case because of the way events rolled on, with several entities making statements without contacting each other first.

      The original article Simone wrote was not about DIVA, she has explained that she is not a Conservative ally as DIVA magazine claimed (without proof, which could also be construed as defaming Simone!), and I do feel she’s had a raw deal from Millivres Prowler, who published DIVA.

      Millivres Prowler published articles wholly from their context in other media they own, without stating a clear conflict of interest. Millivres Prowler is there to make money, but it must acknowledge that it has a responsibility to LGBT people to treat them fairly.

      I note in the Pink Paper, DIVA press release, and another article that they did not ask Simone for a statement, however lambasted her for not cotacting them.

      A month-long internship would be about 20 days. £2 a day bus fare, around £40.00.

      I hope Millivres Prowler understand the value of their reputation over this incident. That’s not specifically about Simone, but their intern travel expense policy on the whole. In the past I have paid to advertise in DIVA and GayTimes. After reading the emails from the editor, I think I’ll find nicer people to reach an LGBT audience with in future.

      Simone, I wish you the very best of luck in your future career.

  12. Liz permalink
    August 2, 2011 8:06 am

    Hi Simone, it’s worthwhile pointing out that Laurie Penny, of Penny Red and other places offered a PAID position as a research assistant whilst writing her new book, due to her strong feelings about unpaid internships, even though she could barely afford it.

Trackbacks

  1. DIVA: Living up to it’s name. The shameful case of withdrawn internships. « "The Yellow Bastard"

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